The Sinclair QL Forum

bwinkel67,
have your tried CKEYON/CKEYOFF? (If youre using PI, that is)

Hi

I think you are wrong, the QL windowing system, aka Pointer Inteface, but the called Extended Environment, allow control of a pointer with a mouse, joystick, or keyboard using cursor key control. The Space bar select the action and Enter does the action.

All the icons in a Pointer Inteface programmes can have keyboard keys associated with the action to be performed.

I mostly use a QL, Q68, QPC2... without a mouse.

The ICE system, which is like GEM, but not as flexible as the QL Extended Envitonment.

bwinkel67 wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2024 6:16 pm One of the things I like about ICE is that it offers keyboard control of the GUI. With MICE they have gotten rid of that in lieu of the mouse. Would be nice to have MICE offer both as then I'd use it more, have the mouse to the side but on occasion use the keyboard to move the pointer as it feels pretty handy (like a poor man's trackpad).

The workaround is to use ICE and a joystick. It's not exactly like using a mouse, but it works.

I used ICE connected to a Trump Card QL with Miracle 4Mb Hard Drive.

The ICE system worked okay, but the mouse was a little flaky, so I converted the mouse connection to use an Atari ST Mouse.

The main problem with ICE, was the lack of proper device drive usage, by this I mean, only pre-coded devices MDV, FLP could only be used, there was no obvious wzy to use a QL Network connection, unless the use of NFS_USE command was used.

There was work around to control 2 WIN drives with the Miracle device drivers, implementing a earlier DV2 control and thd usd of hard directories.

ICE could really handle the thd concept of hard directories. A great pity that it was not developed further.

The ICE toolkit, does give detsils of the data connections to the mouse, spo a PTR_GEN file could be written, to drive the mouse and integrate into the Window Manager, giving ICE better windowing controls.

Andrew wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2024 9:10 pm The workaround is to use ICE and a joystick. It's exactly like using a mouse, but it works.

That's what I do presently. In fact, I had created a prototype joystick mouse that has rollers that slide on a surface and make connections so that if you move the mouse forward it presses the up key, move it left it presses the left key, etc. It's a bit funky but kind of works. I need to create a working model using a 3D printer to see if I can get it to work well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9ZuPDkh6rg&t=915s

You end up training yourself to use it as a mouse though its function is like a joystick. I called it my "if Sinclair had designed a cheap mouse with the QL in '84 that just used the Atari port" mock up

Derek_Stewart wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2024 9:41 pm The main problem with ICE, was the lack of proper device drive usage, by this I mean, only pre-coded devices MDV, FLP could only be used, there was no obvious wzy to use a QL Network connection, unless the use of NFS_USE command was used.

In ICE, it allows you to redefine the three main devices (MDV, FLP, WIN) to whatever you want under the CUSTOM menu, i.e. I usually defined WIN to RAM back in the 90s since I only had a floppy and microdrives connected...and you can save it out as an init file that ICE reads on startup.

bwinkel67 wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2024 6:16 pm

Derek_Stewart wrote: Fri May 03, 2024 7:57 pm I have disassembled ICE rom, just tryingbto understand the assembler source code.

I did think about writing a PTR_GEN driver for the ICE mouse or is that Mice ...

Let me know how far you've gotten with it. One of the things I like about ICE is that it offers keyboard control of the GUI. With MICE they have gotten rid of that in lieu of the mouse. Would be nice to have MICE offer both as then I'd use it more, have the mouse to the side but on occasion use the keyboard to move the pointer as it feels pretty handy (like a poor man's trackpad). Curious if MICE ROM has enough space to merge ICE's cursor control.

I have looked at what stage the disassembley has got to, which is still a bit of work to recognise all the data structures and graphics in ICE.

What expectations do you what if there was an updated ICE system?

Derek_Stewart wrote: Mon Sep 09, 2024 7:35 pm I have looked at what stage the disassembley has got to, which is still a bit of work to recognise all the data structures and graphics in ICE.

What expectations do you what if there was an updated ICE system?

What would be interesting to me is to isolate the keyboard code that moves the mouse pointer in ICE and then see if there is enough space in MICE to merge it into its code that senses the attached mouse movements and converts them to the mouse pointer movement. Or said another way, it would be nice if MICE could read both the the mouse and the cursor keys to move the mouse pointer.

bwinkel67 wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2024 6:04 am

Derek_Stewart wrote: Mon Sep 09, 2024 7:35 pm I have looked at what stage the disassembley has got to, which is still a bit of work to recognise all the data structures and graphics in ICE.

What expectations do you what if there was an updated ICE system?

What would be interesting to me is to isolate the keyboard code that moves the mouse pointer in ICE and then see if there is enough space in MICE to merge it into its code that senses the attached mouse movements and converts them to the mouse pointer movement. Or said another way, it would be nice if MICE could read both the the mouse and the cursor keys to move the mouse pointer.

According to the ICE User Manual, a joystick can be used, which means cursor keys can be used. But if use the MICE unit, this maybe disabled.

However according to the ICE Toolkit Manual, a memory location can be poked to enable keyboard. Not sure if this will work.

I will have to find my MICE ROM.

Derek_Stewart wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2024 4:26 pm However according to the ICE Toolkit Manual, a memory location can be poked to enable keyboard. Not sure if this will work.

I will have to find my MICE ROM.

Oh, wow. Yes, if a memory address could be poked to enable keyboard, that would be great. Unfortunately, I only have the ICE manual, not the ICE Toolkit one..is it available online?