The Sinclair QL Forum

BTW, I can also help create the HTML if we know what the titles are (and people think this is a good idea to catch some copyright holders). My webpages take on a similar form to Dilwyn's as I much prefer that means than trying to navigate impossible environments like WordPress. Just will have to wait until late June when I'm freed up. Maybe we can call it QL Gardens...

Chr$ wrote:I actually quite like the fact that a lot of QL software is not publicly available. It makes collecting the originals a lot more interesting, especially when you successfully recover data from a mouldy old microdrive cart and it works! The whole thing is a challenge due to the lack of availability of most of the originals and the original storage medium reliability. Plus there is the added bonus that it's still actually possible to discover new things or software/games that are MIA.

You have a good point but at the same time it can hinder newcomers in joining the QL community. With software being so readily available (legal or otherwise -- and I'm not supporting "otherwise" here) for other platforms, it doesn't bode as well for the QL. If the community doesn't grow, it will eventually shrink. If we can grow it by having newcomers, those that, when young, wanted a QL but for whatever reason couldn't get one and now with retro-computing revival might think to give it a try, the lack of software (compared to other platforms) may make them skip it. More people means more outlets for all those great hardware creators to get back the cost of what they put in (and more). So having it be a good platform for collectables (lots of rare finds) may not necessarily bode well for growth. If the QL started out big (like finding a rare Beatles vinyl to use that example) then yes, it's great but there are lots of vinyl's out there already and finding a gem in that large sea is a treat.

BTW, for whatever reason, very unfairly in fact, the QL community sometimes gets a bad reputation because of lack of software. I'm on the PiStorm Discord server as I'm interested in a) getting one for my newly acquired (arriving from the UK in June) Amiga 600 and b) seeing if I can port it to the QL, and in a response about other platforms to Claude, the lead of the project, someone brought up the QL and someone else panned it as having no software and being controlled by "like 7 people" implying we have a tiny community. I didn't (yet) chime in though I may since I hate negative stuff like that, even when said about other platforms. Claude's response was that it's been on his eBay list of machines to find so he's interested in one. No need to tear anything down, that person should focus on what he/she likes and ignore the other stuff. That's why I'm glad we got Noel involved in our community since he does such a nice job to a sizable audience (17K youtubers now) sharing the interesting stuff on the QL and part of that is how helpful all of you guys have been here on the forum for his work when he's had questions.

Well I’ll be creating something so contact me directly if you’ve got anything useful to give.

bwinkel67 wrote:
You have a good point but at the same time it can hinder newcomers in joining the QL community. With software being so readily available (legal or otherwise -- and I'm not supporting "otherwise" here) for other platforms, it doesn't bode as well for the QL. If the community doesn't grow, it will eventually shrink. If we can grow it by having newcomers, those that, when young, wanted a QL but for whatever reason couldn't get one and now with retro-computing revival might think to give it a try, the lack of software (compared to other platforms) may make them skip it. More people means more outlets for all those great hardware creators to get back the cost of what they put in (and more). So having it be a good platform for collectables (lots of rare finds) may not necessarily bode well for growth. If the QL started out big (like finding a rare Beatles vinyl to use that example) then yes, it's great but there are lots of vinyl's out there already and finding a gem in that large sea is a treat.

I don't think the QL community will ever be big, so why not keep it intimate, almost exclusive (and I don't mean that patronisingly or snobby at all - I personally have Spectrums, PC's, an Amiga, C64 etc, retro computer people have a lot more that unites them than divides them). For anyone determined enough, it is absolutely possible to get into QLdom, and of course everyone is always welcome, but it's (for more than one reason) not as easy as other platforms and I think that's both a curse and a blessing. For the computers where there are massive amounts of fans/users there is a much higher potential for arguments and other unsavoury goings-on - and bloody hell, there have been a few controversies, bust ups and nastiness over the years, from what I've heard. Also, when there is so much going on in a scene, it's hard for my tiny brain to keep up with everything. I just feel comfortable the way it is and I geek out over my modest collection of undownloadable things and hard-to-find hardware, but that's just me of course.

Chr$ wrote: why not keep it intimate, almost exclusive

I understand your argument, but let's be very careful.
Let's remember that to broaden the horizons is always a good plan: new ideas, energies and fresh projects usually come from uotside.

Cristian wrote:

Chr$ wrote: why not keep it intimate, almost exclusive

I understand your argument, but let's be very careful.
Let's remember that to broaden the horizons is always a good plan: new ideas, energies and fresh projects usually come from uotside.

I know, but isn't there enough free stuff for people to develop new ideas? A lot of the programming software is in the PD as far as I can tell and it's not really going to put any of that off just because you can't get QL Hopper or The Lost Pharaoh.

When people say they would like more QL software to be freely available, exactly what software or kinds of software do they mean?

Chr$ wrote: When people say they would like more QL software to be freely available, exactly what software or kinds of software do they mean?

That's a pretty good question - because these days, I feel I have everything available freely that I might have liked to have "back in the days"

tofro wrote:

Chr$ wrote: When people say they would like more QL software to be freely available, exactly what software or kinds of software do they mean?

That's a pretty good question - because these days, I feel I have everything available freely that I might have liked to have "back in the days"

Exactly. And I suspect (no offence to the original question asker) that when most people notice that not everything ever programmed is freely available for the QL, they choke on their tea a bit and want it all to be available all over the internet, just like everything else, for the simple reason: well that's how it is for everything else... and for 'preservation'.

But then when you actually look into it deeper, all (or most of) the useful tools are available and when it comes to utilities/tools the vast majority of those that are not available are totally obsolete. No doubt there are some things that would be nice to play around with, shame that the Digital Precision stuff isn't available for example.

As for games, yeah, some that I've acquired over the years that you can't find online are ok, nice to look at and try, some interesting ideas, but nothing that's going to blow you away. In fact, Assault & Battery, Spook, Pudge, Rockfall, Speedfreaks, M Metropolis, M Treasure, Chess, some of the Merz puzzle games (I love BrainSmasher) and a couple of others that are all in the PD are probably about as good as it gets in terms of games!

Chr$ wrote: For pretty much anything Spectrum related or for any other 80s computer you just google it and find it instantly - which is technically illegal, everyone knows that, but usually sort of tolerated as there is little chance of actually earning money from 1980s computer programs these days so the piracy doesn't financially damage the original producer. But where's the fun in having everything available in numerous online places and on umpteen different software DVD's being peddled on eBay.

Copyright is always a problematic issue.

Although as you say, there is "little chance of actually earning money from 1980s computer programs these days" the growth of new emulated hardware platforms which raise a lot of money on Kickstarter and come "bundled with 10,000 games" has really put a lot of the software community off, as they see hardware companies making money from their hard work, without even an acknowledgement or request as to whether it can be bundled with new hardware. That really goes against the grain and was never the intention of say, World of Spectrum - where software was uploaded for the benefit of the site users and never actually put into the public domain. The same can be said of the multiple CD-ROMs which are out there based on this content.

I don't want to get involved in copyright and even preservation discussions as this definitely caused me a lot of issues some years back - I adopted what I felt was the correct approach:

1) Concentrating on preserving the software initially from my own vast collection; and getting it up and running.
2) Using the information to populate the Wiki about the software and try to attract copyright holders
3) Tracking down and contacting the copyright holders and obtaining their permission for the software to be released into the public domain, or where they did not want to do so, release it as part of a box-set and pay them royalties on sales.
4) Using income from any sales to help fund new projects for the QL and help keep prices down for any hardware / second hand items I sold.
5) The collected software, complete with the preservation archive would then be handed over to a computer museum for preservation (as museums can also distribute such material between themselves for use in the museum).

Unfortunately, this approach was inundated with criticism which made me seriously consider whether or not to continue supporting the QL community - as soon as people understood that I was preserving software, they insisting that I release it freely for everyone - obviously it would be me facing the danger of being taken to court. Copyright holders who responded were generally supportive but some could not give consent due to licensing issues (such as Metacomco as they had a licence from Borland (I think) which has since expired); or simply did not want the software to be made available in any form.

After 4+ years of doing this, I lost heart in the project and have done nothing since. The QL Wiki was handed over to the QL community (thanks Norm) but few people have added to it since. So far as I know, there were only one or two further approaches to copyright holders since.

I still have a huge box full of software, manuals etc (weight about 60KG) - I did talk to one of the museums about passing it over to them, but with Covid etc, this never happened. That box must be worth about £1000+ to collectors.

I understand Rich. I'm sure I'm not the only one that appreciates your efforts and all that you have done to preserve and resurrect QL software. Much respect to you for professionalism of abiding by the letter of the law, especially as no one else ever has (for other platforms).

I'd buy your 60kg! But I know that moving it from a private collection to another private collection is not your goal.

I'd like to add more to the wiki but still have the issue that I can't upload (or edit) images, which is frustrating because I like making and sharing decent quality images. In fact the wiki doesn't work at all for me when using Edge (but does with Chrome). I've contacted Rob but I don't think he's seen the message yet.